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Session 17 - Going Beyond the First Position


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  • matonanjin pinned this topic
  • 3 months later...

Hey, so I've just got onto this session and I'm determined to do as Steve says and learn to go through all the 3 note scales in the keys to hopefully learn the entire fret.

I'll be honest to say when he prescribed the same thing for pentatonic scales I did quite do the lot, managed to learn the notes in each scales pentatonic but I didn't get any closer to learning all the notes at that point. 

Just wondering whether I should go back to the pentatonic scales and learn them fully all over the guitar or if I should just do the 3 note scales properly. 

Cheers!

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I sometimes don't see the course as linear as Session 1 to Session 2 to Session 3.. 

as your skill increases you'll want to skip ahead (esp above session 9) .. learn something new that peaks your interest but might not grasp the concept/skill at that time.

then you jump back and work something that wasn't just quite right when you were there, then move forward again.. 

remember as skills are learned we use them, here and there.

(pss.. also Steve has said the "master" in Learn and Master .. was just a name they came up with.. don't trip over the "I didn't master X session")

the learning , adjusting, re-learning, never stops.. 

I'm nowhere near Session 17, but now that I'm not playing in my choir every week, is allowing me to go back to areas that are week and re-learn/re-adjust them and move forward all at the same time.

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Session 17 isn't too far off for me, but as @Eracer_Team-DougH says, I find myself 're-visiting"  lessons like the penatatonic scales, the major scale, intervals and triads fairly often. I takes time to have this stuff ingrained into your brain and fingers. (as least with me it does...) 

So @flobbadob  if you can meet the " You're Ready to Move On" criteria  and You feel like you're ready, why not go for it? There's no shame in going back to a previous lesson and reviewing it. In fact I think its a very good thing. 

Sometimes I 'll do  a practice session where I go all the way back to the early lessons (at least n the book) and play every exercise and song in the lesson and bonus book right up to the current level. It's sometimes a wake up call... "ohhh, my reading isn't too good, or what is that key signature again, or whats the 3rd of Db? "   After all, this is "self-directed" learning... 

All the Best N

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Thanks for the advice chaps.


Another thing I've been wondering is a bit of skepticism to how going through these scales will make me memorise all the notes. Maybe I'm not putting enough time in into yet but not sure. 

For example I've made a start by taking the 1st 3 note on a string form and have gone through all major scales with it (playing through and saying notes, twice each). But by the end of this I don't feel like I know the notes any better, if I pick some random somewhere in the middle I still don't have a clue and have to use reference points like 1st position or the 12th fret. 

Will I really eventually learn them all by using this kind of method? 

Only one way to find out of course, but I'm curious how the learning process went for others, when did you start seeing progress?

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On 9/17/2018 at 6:32 AM, flobbadob said:

Thanks for the advice chaps.


Another thing I've been wondering is a bit of skepticism to how going through these scales will make me memorise all the notes. Maybe I'm not putting enough time in into yet but not sure. 

For example I've made a start by taking the 1st 3 note on a string form and have gone through all major scales with it (playing through and saying notes, twice each). But by the end of this I don't feel like I know the notes any better, if I pick some random somewhere in the middle I still don't have a clue and have to use reference points like 1st position or the 12th fret. 

Will I really eventually learn them all by using this kind of method? 

Only one way to find out of course, but I'm curious how the learning process went for others, when did you start seeing progress?

The “Three-Notes-On-A-String” scales are navigational patterns, just like the pentatonic forms. They should be learned in terms of intervals, which are easily transposable to any key, rather than notes in those patterns. The notes of the fretboard in any given tuning don’t change, but their function may change depending on the context.

So, learning the notes of the fretboard using scale patterns will work eventually, but it may cause more confusion in the beginning and delay the progress. I suggest you pick a method that directly deals with the layout of notes on the guitar fretboard and how they relate to the musical staff.

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22 hours ago, V7#5b9 said:

The “Three-Notes-On-A-String” scales are navigational patterns, just like the pentatonic forms. They should be learned in terms of intervals, which are easily transposable to any key, rather than notes in those patterns. The notes of the fretboard in any given tuning don’t change, but their function may change depending on the context.

So, learning the notes of the fretboard using scale patterns will work eventually, but it may cause more confusion in the beginning and delay the progress. I suggest you pick a method that directly deals with the layout of notes on the guitar fretboard and how they relate to the musical staff.

Thanks for the insight, that does make sense. 

I am curious though as Steve seems to say in the videos that if I go through these 3 note on a string exercises and say the notes then I'll eventually know all the notes on the board. Do you know of anyone using this method and succeeding?

At the moment I'm going through the 1st , 2nd and 3rd forms for each of the 12 keys, will try this for a week or two and see how far I get! 

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6 hours ago, flobbadob said:

Thanks for the insight, that does make sense. 

I am curious though as Steve seems to say in the videos that if I go through these 3 note on a string exercises and say the notes then I'll eventually know all the notes on the board. Do you know of anyone using this method and succeeding?

At the moment I'm going through the 1st , 2nd and 3rd forms for each of the 12 keys, will try this for a week or two and see how far I get! 

First of all, do not put any time limit, or compare your progress with somebody else’s. Everyone is different and it takes as long as it does for you to see significant, positive results. Don’t try, just do it and do it consistently. Trial approach is your biggest enemy.

Secondly, I don’t think Steve would recommend this method, if it didn’t work. Any method will work eventually if you stick with it. So, to answer your question directly, I personally don’t know of anyone using this method and succeeding. However, I do assume the majority of students here do use this method and succeed.

All I can tell you is that my approach to learning the notes of the fretboard was different from the very beginning. I used a couple of methods. One was to just go up and down each string between the nut and the 12th fret, naming the notes using sharps for accidentals when ascending, and flats for accidentals when descending. The other method involved “Five Root Shapes.” Beyond the 12th fret everything repeats.

So, I know all the notes of the fretboard and how they relate to the musical staff, but I tend to view it in terms of three four-fret zones. The main reason for knowing the notes is to be able to read music, but also to know where to play the chords, or start scale/arpeggio patterns which I view in terms of easily transposable intervals, or scale degrees.

When we play we can’t think fast enough in terms of notes or even intervals or scale/arpeggio degrees. The fingers have to do it automatically for us. But, when we learn and practice our scale/arpeggio patterns, riffs, licks or phrases, we need to be aware of intervals or scale degrees so we know where the chord as well as diatonic and chromatic approach tones are. Intervallic approach allows for much easier transposition of these elements to other keys as the patterns usually remain intact (sometimes they have to be adjusted), whereas the notes change from key to key. 

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Learning all the note positions takes time and effort. Three notes on a string along with learning the major, minor and pentatonic scales will absolutely help you learn the notes on the neck. You can also benefit from just learning the notes on the 5th and 6th string which act as a guide to where the same notes are on the other strings. I watched a video long ago where the instructor would just find all the C notes on every string then move to E or G. He could move through all the notes in seconds with no hesitation. It takes time and effort. I have worked on 3 notes on a string for months and I have no doubt my skills have improved. The video below also helped.

DOUBLE Your Fretboard Knowledge With This ONE Exercise

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have finally decided on a seven pattern major scale method to help learn notes and scales on the neck. 4 note Patterns like CBDC EDFE GFAG etc. I see the method behind the madness, but it’s still confusing to play,especially when you start to speed up.The 7 patterns cover the entire neck.

I now see how patterns are more than just practice exercises, because some of these patterns sound really good.Add in a slur or two, a rest and vibrato and you have the makings of a lick.

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On 9/18/2018 at 8:16 PM, V7#5b9 said:

The “Three-Notes-On-A-String” scales are navigational patterns, just like the pentatonic forms. They should be learned in terms of intervals, which are easily transposable to any key, rather than notes in those patterns. The notes of the fretboard in any given tuning don’t change, but their function may change depending on the context.

So, learning the notes of the fretboard using scale patterns will work eventually, but it may cause more confusion in the beginning and delay the progress. I suggest you pick a method that directly deals with the layout of notes on the guitar fretboard and how they relate to the musical staff.

I second @V7#5b9.

Session 17 is very useful as another approach to learn to play major scales, and the 3-notes-on-a-string exercises were part of my daily practice routine for many months.

To learn the notes on the entiteit fredboard however, I used another more direct approach explained in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuzB2_O8GGM

Wim.

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A very logical and simple method. You could call it "The Reference Method" ie; all the other notes in relation to C.

Another way is to memorize the notes on the low E and A. The corresponding note on the 4th D and 3rd G is 2 frets up and 2 strings over. Except the 3rd B which is 2 strings over and 3 frets up. The high E you know as the same as the low E. Voila.

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Just thought I'd update as working on the 3 note on a string scales for a month or so. Really started to get the forms under my fingers, starting to learn the hammer on and pull off way now. Know the neck pretty well now but note recognition still not instant. 

Did anyone else find learning hammer and pull off to be very slow? I admit they don't feel as natural, and I really struggle to get volume on the third hammer on if I'm going slow (~60bpm eighth notes). I guess I just need to keep at it!

 

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@flobbadob  Thanks for your update Bob! We need fellows like you to give us u  pdates. It stimulates responses and more activity on the "the board" which we can certainly use in the LMG section .

I'm about to enter S17 myself so I'd love to hear how you're doing. I actually learned the 1st Form of 3 note/string some time ago, but haven't memorized the other forms as yet. S 17 is a HUGE session! I expect it will take a while. Even our sterling and talented teacher said it took him 3 months of DAILY practice on these forms before he was confident at them. 

I know the notes on the fretboard reasonably well... by memorization and referrence to strings the 6th and 5th strings (up 2 over 2 ; voila) but the "desert" zone on the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd string above the 5th fret is still a bit vague, as it is with most guitarists. Like you I will conquer this challenge, in due course.

Hammer - on , Pull- offs;  the former, no problem, the later, not so well. and as we have seen demonstrated with the 3 note scales the speed can me impressive.... you're right this takes lot's of practice.  I need to use the "nome too.

I have a related resource that could help you (I got it from Steve K long before I could use it) It used to be in Steve's store. It's called "Guitar Seeds" by Jack Grassel. www.jackgrassel.com   Steve crdited this book for his through understanding of scales and freat

  https://www.jackgrasseljilljensen.com/store/p38/GUITAR_SEEDS.html

This book offers numerous exercises, among them 3 note /string scales... DEFINITELY not for the faint of heart. It's tough, but thats were I started. ALL NOTATION, NO TAB. If your reading needs work (mine sure does) and you want to know scales, modes, improv,  " ii - V's " , "" ii - V - I's " , etc. this is it. 

All the Best; Neil

Guitar Seeds has been turning out great guitarists since 1973. Now, improved and in it’s fourth printing. Contains Jack’s 20 position scale system combining horizontal and vertical movements to liberate the player from the limitations of position playing. Turn your neck into one big position. For improvement of reading ability, technical facility, improvisation, and expression. Contains rhythm and melody chord systems, pentatonic scales, polytonal arpeggios, chord substitution theory, technique for playing bass lines and chords simultaneously. Has been used as text book in guitar schools for decades. 

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  • NeilES335 unpinned and pinned this topic
  • 6 months later...

So here it is about 8 months later, and I'm still working on this S17.

(really? ok, ok....excuse time; I didnt play much at all from Feb to now...that's business you know)

I do have the patterns down pretty well in Key of F, and moving to Key of D and Bb does not seems to be that difficult. I'm trying to focus on saying and playing the notes to get the most out of the exercises, and I'm a lot more familiar with the fret positions above the 5th - 17 th position.  This really hammers the major scale into your brain, and visually you tend to recall the note for a given fret much quicker.  I didnt realise until last night there is a playalong jam track for this so I'll have to get into this ... man, Steve's hammer on pull of advanced version is quick!

I find that I really just LISTEN to the intervals, (this must be what they mean by " Ear Training" ... I thought that was  playing with your ear... wouldnt that be painful ? lol)  In  most cases, my fingers just "go there" to the appropriate fret by repetition.  It is a lot of repetitious work, but like most things that it does pay off. Those artists you hear playing effortlessly didnt get that way by just watching it on video!

 Another fretboard knowledge test is to name a key and find and name all the notes in that key in succession as quickly as possible.Then find all the A's, Ab's, B's Bb's, C's etc. on the fretboard say and play them.   Betcha cant do it the first time! 

Meanwhile I've drifted into S18 also, and basically finished the workbook session there, although not the bonus S18 yet.

And in addition, I'm working on a Sandra Shermans ("Greeetings from Austria!" )"Easy"  Chord Melody arrangement of "Autumn Leaves" which I found on YT.

I'm hoping to have "Autumn Leaves "  in playable shape to record in the near future.  (I have a way to go to match anything that @Wim VD1 or @mark_h is putting out lately... WELL DONE GUYS!) 

I must say that learning Steve K's "Fretboard Workout - Jazz Chords  "  and the "Major Scales" has made this possible. For those approaching S18, I highly recommend you do this course first. It will all make a lot more sense. 

Edited by NeilES335
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10 hours ago, NeilES335 said:

Is anyone else here currently working on S17 or S18? I'd like to hear your comments and experiences at this stage.

Neil, 

It is about 2 years now since I have been working on Session 17. Looking back, and after working on many songs, I can say that for playing solo's and melodies, I am benefiting most from the following:

- Steve's Major Scales Fredboard Workouts

- Arpeggio exercises. A good introduction is given in the bonus materials of Session 14. I also used a more in depth resource "Chord Tone Soloing" by Barrett Tagliarino.

- Good old major and minor pentatonics. There is a lot of music you can make with 5 notes, and it takes me more effort than expected to learn to master mixing major and minor pentatonics in a rock or blues song.

I have not yet used the 3 notes per string approach in solo's. For specific legato style soloing this this technique is useful, but that is not a style I have been working on so far. So I did do my homework on Session 17, but the benefit I got out of it was rather limited. And I did use other exercises to learn the notes on the entire fredboard.

Enjoy Session 18! That is a nice one, especially combined with Steve's Jazz Chords Fredboard Workouts.

Wim.

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5 hours ago, Wim VD1 said:

Neil, 

It is about 2 years now since I have been working on Session 17. Looking back, and after working on many songs, I can say that for playing solo's and melodies, I am benefiting most from the following:

- Steve's Major Scales Fredboard Workouts

- Arpeggio exercises. A good introduction is given in the bonus materials of Session 14. I also used a more in depth resource "Chord Tone Soloing" by Barrett Tagliarino.

- Good old major and minor pentatonics. There is a lot of music you can make with 5 notes, and it takes me more effort than expected to learn to master mixing major and minor pentatonics in a rock or blues song.

I have not yet used the 3 notes per string approach in solo's. For specific legato style soloing this this technique is useful, but that is not a style I have been working on so far. So I did do my homework on Session 17, but the benefit I got out of it was rather limited. And I did use other exercises to learn the notes on the entire fredboard.

Enjoy Session 18! That is a nice one, especially combined with Steve's Jazz Chords Fredboard Workouts.

Wim.

@Wim VD1Thanks very much for the feedback.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I thought I was about done with S17, until I went back and watched the video again. I know the patterns in key of F, and the fretboard pretty well, but I still need to go through and do all the other keys, and get the hammer on/pull off speed up. Steve wasnt kidding when he says it could take a while... I so much want to move on but these scales and even the arpeggios from S14 are still dogging me. PPP. 

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2 hours ago, Eracer_Team-DougH said:

Good golly it will take a century for me to get to s17  , and another century to get out of it

Well it would helpif i practiced daiy vs  somewhat sporatically.

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  • 10 months later...
On 9/16/2018 at 3:41 PM, NeilES335 said:

Session 17 isn't too far off for me, but as @Eracer_Team-DougH says, I find myself 're-visiting"  lessons like the penatatonic scales, the major scale, intervals and triads fairly often. I takes time to have this stuff ingrained into your brain and fingers. (as least with me it does...)

Hi everybody!  I'm here.  Officially, legally?, I'll be here in a couple days.  I'm finishing up the play along songs at the end of 16 over the next couple days but since I had logged in thought I would pre-announce🤔

Like Neil, I am doing some review.  I've gone back and am restudying pentatonic scales.  I have the patterns down but just can't seem to get the location of the root note for each box ingrained.  I'm going to keep reviewing until I do. And many of us have used Hal Leonard's book on Barre Chords to complement our studies on that.  I have found that book and am working the exercises.  I am going to go through all of those until I get through "Layla" toward the end.

But I digress. Wish me luck on getting up there in the "dusty" area of the fretboard!

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5 hours ago, matonanjin said:

Hi everybody!  I'm here.  Officially, legally?, I'll be here in a couple days.  I'm finishing up the play along songs at the end of 16 over the next couple days but since I had logged in thought I would pre-announce🤔

Like Neil, I am doing some review.  I've gone back and am restudying pentatonic scales.  I have the patterns down but just can't seem to get the location of the root note for each box ingrained.  I'm going to keep reviewing until I do. And many of us have used Hal Leonard's book on Barre Chords to complement our studies on that.  I have found that book and am working the exercises.  I am going to go through all of those until I get through "Layla" toward the end.

But I digress. Wish me luck on getting up there in the "dusty" area of the fretboard!

Hey Ron, an early congratulations for finishing session 16! And all the best up there in the dusty area.

Wim.

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6 hours ago, matonanjin said:

Hi everybody!  I'm here.  Officially, legally?, I'll be here in a couple days.  I'm finishing up the play along songs at the end of 16 over the next couple days but since I had logged in thought I would pre-announce🤔

Like Neil, I am doing some review.  I've gone back and am restudying pentatonic scales.  I have the patterns down but just can't seem to get the location of the root note for each box ingrained.  I'm going to keep reviewing until I do. And many of us have used Hal Leonard's book on Barre Chords to complement our studies on that.  I have found that book and am working the exercises.  I am going to go through all of those until I get through "Layla" toward the end.

But I digress. Wish me luck on getting up there in the "dusty" area of the fretboard!

Best wishes Ron!

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12 hours ago, matonanjin said:

Hi everybody!  I'm here.  Officially, legally?, I'll be here in a couple days.  I'm finishing up the play along songs at the end of 16 over the next couple days but since I had logged in thought I would pre-announce🤔

Like Neil, I am doing some review.  I've gone back and am restudying pentatonic scales.  I have the patterns down but just can't seem to get the location of the root note for each box ingrained.  I'm going to keep reviewing until I do. And many of us have used Hal Leonard's book on Barre Chords to complement our studies on that.  I have found that book and am working the exercises.  I am going to go through all of those until I get through "Layla" toward the end.

But I digress. Wish me luck on getting up there in the "dusty" area of the fretboard!

Congrats on your progress and all the best Ron. 🎸👍

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