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NeilES335

Session 7 - Barre Chords on the 6th String

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A Forum for Learn and Master Guitar Students to ask questions, make comments, receive advice and encouragement, and post their progress.

 

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For a while I have been working the E - Shape Barre chord. I am " really good" with that one. Today, I started the A-Shape, and started on Session 7 yesterday. I read online some ppl talking about the CAGED System - I know what that is, but then others saying you really only need to know the E - shape and the A - shape. The other shapes are rarely used. Honestly, I don't wanna waste time learning something I will use very occasionally, that I can do as I work on other stuff that really is important. I am open to thoughts from anyone on this. For now, I am just not sure weather I should be working on all the shapes or not. 

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38 minutes ago, RBT618 said:

For a while I have been working the E - Shape Barre chord. I am " really good" with that one. Today, I started the A-Shape, and started on Session 7 yesterday. I read online some ppl talking about the CAGED System - I know what that is, but then others saying you really only need to know the E - shape and the A - shape. The other shapes are rarely used. Honestly, I don't wanna waste time learning something I will use very occasionally, that I can do as I work on other stuff that really is important. I am open to thoughts from anyone on this. For now, I am just not sure weather I should be working on all the shapes or not. 

Congratulations  on your progress so far. Its easy to get sidetracked with pther paths and approaches. At this point I recommed you stick with learning barre chords with 6th string and 5th string root, as per the course. This is plenty to learn at this stage.  The CAGED system is a method that can be learned at a later date.

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I agee with Neil. Just recently I started to focus on the CAGED system as basis for learning arpeggios and chord tone soloing. I did not really need it till session 19. So it's a good idea to stick to the content of the course and the session you are in.

I wish you all the best with your learning.

Wim.

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@RBT618, in case no one has mentioned it, you might be best to work the materials in front of you for now ;)  I have heard of the caged system and will probably investigate it more at some point.  Many of us on here complement our studies with outside materials and Steve encourages us to "Learn All You Can".    I'm currently in Session 13, Playing the Blues, so I am also studying a TrueFire Course on 30 Beginner Blues Licks.  But as Wim stated he didn't need Caged System until almost finishing L&MG. 

Some of us on here complemented Session 7 with the Hal Leonard Barre Chord book.  It had quite a few songs in it using Barre Chords.

Good Luck to you in your studies.

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@RBT618

I certainly don’t want to contradict what has been stated so far, but since you are open to thoughts from anyone, I’d like to offer my humble opinion of the CAGED system. 

The system that is known today as CAGED is really an intrinsic part of the standard guitar tuning. Understanding the chord-scale-arpeggio relationships from the CAGED perspective is really the basis for mastering the fretboard. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp and it gives you the big picture a beginner may not see for a long time. 

Frankly, I would introduce CAGED conceptually as early as the open chords are taught, to show how the entire fretboard can be methodically deciphered in terms of the three basic elements: chords, scales and arpeggios. As each element of the puzzle is learned, having the big picture in mind helps put them back together again. CAGED is the standard way of breaking down the fretboard into manageable pieces. 

Some say CAGED sucks. Tom Hess is probably the biggest opponent of it. I think it’s a gross exaggeration. The 3-Notes-Per-String system he touts as being superior is advantageous in terms of economy picking and playing horizontally, but not so much when playing in position which allows for the best voice leading possible. 

Although the 3-Notes-Per-String method allows for 7 patterns and CAGED only 5, additional patterns can be derived. The Extended CAGED system as taught by Richie Zellon is basically the standard CAGED system with two more patterns to cover a whole 7-note scale. The fingering method employed results in consistency when playing both a scale and the arpeggio derived from it. Richie's heptatonic system of fingerings is the most versatile method I’ve come across so far. It allows for playing both vertically (in position) and horizontally (along the fretboard) using composite fingerings. 

Bottom line: There’s no single method that works perfectly in every situation. Therefore, the more shapes, patterns, and fingerings you’re familiar with, the more playing freedom you will have. 
 

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On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎13 at 9:24 PM, RBT618 said:

For a while I have been working the E - Shape Barre chord. I am " really good" with that one. Today, I started the A-Shape, and started on Session 7 yesterday. I read online some ppl talking about the CAGED System - I know what that is, but then others saying you really only need to know the E - shape and the A - shape. The other shapes are rarely used. Honestly, I don't wanna waste time learning something I will use very occasionally, that I can do as I work on other stuff that really is important. I am open to thoughts from anyone on this. For now, I am just not sure weather I should be working on all the shapes or not. 

actually I'm a bit confused by your question.. 

In Learn and Master Guitar Session 7 there are only 5 shapes of Barre Chords.. 

F, Fm. F7, Fm7 and Fsus... all of these are moveable on the sixth string root.

if you can make a E Barre sixth string (that would be on the 12th fret) then sliding that back down to 5th fret A or 1st fret F.. it's all the same shape.

if you add Session 8 in the mix with the 5th String Root.. you have 5 moveable chords 

B, Bm, B7, Bm7, Bsus

again these are moveable and take the same shape as you move up the neck.. above the 7th fret E on 5th string.. then the full barre gets a little tight barring the 6th fret and squishing the 3 fingers in there on the 8th fret. so many (including me) use a 2 finger barre version up higher on the neck.

I'm suspecting you're actually talking about LMG Session 5 Basic Open Chords,

where an E chord is one fingering set , and where the A Chord is using 3 fingers on the 2nd fret, strings 2/3/4... 

yes the Open A basic chord is tough to learn at first.

the other thing is adding the CAGED reference I think is a bit confusing as well as it takes a slight different approach to chords

 

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Steve does not cover the CAGED system in the Learn & Master course, but he does have some videos on it. I don't think you should waste your time on CAGED at this point because you have so much to learn. You can always learn CAGED at a later date for extra credit, but if you think it is some magical system you must know to be your best then you will be disappointed. Desi Serna covers caged in his Fretboard Theory course. I think you have plenty of challenges just trying to complete Steve's course. It is easy to get sidetracked looking for some magical formula that will make you a great guitar player, but there isn't any. There is just knowledge, practice, and playing in the end.  

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Other learning materials present barre chords in different shapes, e.g. c-shape, d-shape and g-shaped.

Question, Are these additional shapes barred from the different strings or do all barre chords fret off the 5th and sixth strings? When looking at the D-shape, which string is the root string?

 

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On 2018-04-28 at 8:59 AM, Tuninghead said:

Other learning materials present barre chords in different shapes, e.g. c-shape, d-shape and g-shaped.

Question, Are these additional shapes barred from the different strings or do all barre chords fret off the 5th and sixth strings? When looking at the D-shape, which string is the root string?

 

The D-shape Barre chords are based on the fourth string root. I’ve made a couple of entries in my Blog section, one on the conventional CAGED system and the other on the extended CAGED system. Here’s the LINK to the first one.

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Coincidently, I just received an update from Desi Serna as an owner of the Fretboard Theory course. Desi has updated a couple lessons including CAGED. He says specifically: "If you can't play the E and A Barre chords in songs then the CAGED system is too advanced for you". 

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Regarding the CAGED system , I understand the concept, but it does make me wonder. Isn't this making the process a bit too complicated? I think that's the reason many teachers and players like our mentor Steve K, only give it a passing comment, and don't really teach it in their courses. And I think they get along quite well don't you agree? 

It's sort of like learning all the MODES of all the scales in every key... nice to know if that turns your crank; BUT.. is that going to make you a better sounding player or musician? Who really cares if you know that except maybe another musician? I"m not too sure about that...

In my humble opinion, most players could do well just to memorize chords on with 6th, 5th, and maybe 4th string roots (like "jazz chords" )and triads,  and they would have plenty in their toolbox. 

 

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It can be another tool in your arsenal of learning. Some tools work well for some and not for others. The CAGED system can be one of these tools. If it helps you learn to visualize and remember  the fretboard notes,  chords,  various scales and the patterns and the correlation between all of these, then it is worth checking it out. Learn all you can from all resources. I played around with the CAGED system enough to recognize why it works and that it helped me with learning the fretboard. I use some of the chords, but I do not have all the shapes mastered. Sometimes the trick is figuring out what works for you and this takes some experimenting, time, practice, persistence and patience. Don't be afraid to experiment but also remember that it is easy to go down those rabbit holes and get sidetracked. Remember to have fun and if you are learning, then you are still on course!

Learning the guitar always comes back to those three P's.........Patience, Practice, persistence! NO FEAR!

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3 hours ago, NeilES335 said:

Regarding the CAGED system , I understand the concept, but it does make me wonder. Isn't this making the process a bit too complicated? I think that's the reason many teachers and players like our mentor Steve K, only give it a passing comment, and don't really teach it in their courses. And I think they get along quite well don't you agree? 

It's sort of like learning all the MODES of all the scales in every key... nice to know if that turns your crank; BUT.. is that going to make you a better sounding player or musician? Who really cares if you know that except maybe another musician? I"m not too sure about that...

In my humble opinion, most players could do well just to memorize chords on with 6th, 5th, and maybe 4th string roots (like "jazz chords" )and triads,  and they would have plenty in their toolbox. 

 

I beg to differ. ? I think the CAGED system simplifies the process of understanding the guitar fretboard and it does it at the highest level. Desi Serna incorporates it in his Fretboard Theory and both Steve Stine and Griff Hamlin have separate courses on the CAGED system, just to name a few teachers. I see it in the Three Note On A String Scales which Steve teaches in Session 17. It’s simply the way the fretboard is laid out. Why not understand it from its basic perspective? Beats me! ?

Unless you are an advanced player like Steve, modes viewed from their root position, especially in jazz, are important too, because you need to know where your chord tones are when you solo, and chords do come from specific modes. Steve can do it from the perspective of modal superimposition (e.g. F mixolydian is the fifth mode of Bb so I’ll play Bb starting on the fifth note over the V chord) because from years of experience he’s come to understand the true underlying relationship of the notes he is playing to the chord of the moment.

So yes, both CAGED and Modes do turn my crank. ? Will they make me a better sounding player? ? That’s not exactly a fair question, because that’s a matter of skill and technique, not theory.

Another thing is that most courses out there are designed for guitar enthusiasts, hobbyists, or amateur musicians, not college students. Obviously, teachers don’t want to overwhelm their students with too much material. They break it down into smaller courses and teach what they think is absolutely necessary, because that’s what most students expect anyway. For example, the Circle of Fifths or Fourths is a great tool most musicians understand and use, yet it’s not covered in L&MG. ?

Having made the case for CAGED and Modes, I will agree that not every player needs them. ?

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I started s7 3 days ago. Can make the shapes, but getting the notes to play clearly is a struggle. Know it’s gonna take time and perseverance.  This s7 was my downfall last time I attempted the course. The scales are making a lot more sense than last time. 

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52 minutes ago, Uncle Mike said:

I started s7 3 days ago. Can make the shapes, but getting the notes to play clearly is a struggle. Know it’s gonna take time and perseverance.  This s7 was my downfall last time I attempted the course. The scales are making a lot more sense than last time. 

It just takes a while to get the finger strength developed to play the barre chords clearly.  It took me months.  Many months.  You will get there.  Just allow yourself time.

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The problem I have with barre chords is moving from a barre to an open chord, especially after practicing barre chords and my hand is a bit tired. I try to practice the songs in the book by using barre and open chords, but when moving from a barre chord its almost as if my hand is somehow "stuck" in the barre chord position and I struggle to get my fingers to quickly move into an open chord position, like from A barre to an open G or D. I know with a lot of practice it will become better.  

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I want to play the blues. I will keep at these barre chords. They will not defeat me. 

What demon decided to put a d7 in Home on the range?

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I have made it to lesson 7 and wanted to ask are there any specific exercises aside from what STEVE shows that you used to strengthen the first finger? Also, in the barre chords shown in the book (for example Fm), what is the purpose of showing a bold 1 on the e,b and g strings when your finger is to press all the strings on the barre chord? Thanks.

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On 4/23/2018 at 4:21 PM, Randy120 said:

Steve does not cover the CAGED system in the Learn & Master course, but he does have some videos on it. I don't think you should waste your time on CAGED at this point because you have so much to learn. You can always learn CAGED at a later date for extra credit, but if you think it is some magical system you must know to be your best then you will be disappointed. Desi Serna covers caged in his Fretboard Theory course. I think you have plenty of challenges just trying to complete Steve's course. It is easy to get sidetracked looking for some magical formula that will make you a great guitar player, but there isn't any. There is just knowledge, practice, and playing in the end.  

This is very true Randy. I personally found Myself caught up in this same situation and just ended up becoming frustrated. as much guitar can seem magical at times it all boils down to what is most comfortable to the individual and Steve being the seasoned professional he is I would just stick to the course. it is easy to start straying to find a short cut.

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On 7/25/2018 at 8:44 AM, ChrisJ032 said:

I have made it to lesson 7 and wanted to ask are there any specific exercises aside from what STEVE shows that you used to strengthen the first finger? Also, in the barre chords shown in the book (for example Fm), what is the purpose of showing a bold 1 on the e,b and g strings when your finger is to press all the strings on the barre chord? Thanks.

Steve has a diamond on the 6th string to indicate the root of the chord. The bold 1 on g, b, and high e indicate the barre. 

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Let's get started ... 

It seems a little bit tricky. F7 , it's kind of nightmare ... 

I hope, I pass it soon

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I was more 'introduced' to the CAGED system this spring (although it probably shouldn't be under the Barre Chord section)

my instructor was trying to get me on the fly changing a song by capo'ing a fret and then thinking of what chord I needed to play.

say I capo 5, then what cord (aka CAGED) would I use, then in that case, an open A cord shape, using the D from the capo'd 5th fret as the root.

a open G shaped chord with a capo on the 5th fret is a C.

etc.

the trick with the CAGED system as not thinking your open chords are solid, D chord in first position is a D. but with a Capo on 5 that D chord shape is now a G. 

The CAGED system does have merit if you're not going to barre the chord as taught in Session 7 and just use a capo as the 'new' nut.

example: here is a song I play weekly in church.

note I put a capo reference for Capo 1 and Capo 3

in the first barre you're not playing a C or a D depending on the Capo , you're still playing an Eb

even if the chord looks like a open C chord you're playing. cause of the capo on the 1st fret, it's an Eb

same with the Gm in open.. it's a F#m shape or a Em shape in bar 3, but those chords F#m and Em are just shapes.. its still a Gm sounding chord

(my instructor doesn't want me to write the Capo chords in above as I did, but to think of them in my head.. on the fly)

 

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9 hours ago, HYA said:

It seems a little bit tricky. F7 , it's kind of nightmare ... 

I hope, I pass it soon

You will. It just takes time and practice.  Lots of both. Keep us up to date on your process.

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14 hours ago, matonanjin said:

You will. It just takes time and practice.  Lots of both. Keep us up to date on your process.

thanks for your support

 

 

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