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Wrapping my head around modes


Magnit

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Modes. I can't recall if Steve mentions this in the LMG course that I finished years ago. For instance A dorian contains the same notes as G major, but with A as the root. How do I make it, not sound G major? Starting and ending on A isn't enough.

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@Magnit Welcome to the Forum?

I am not expert on this topic however to the best of my knowledge, "modes" ie: aolean etc are not mentioned per se on the LMG  course, and I have rarely heard Steve K mention it unless asked. In later sessions (14, 15, 16 etc) you could say it is taught by inference in the form of 3 note per string scales , starting on say, the 2nd 3rd or 4th step below the root and so on. 

I'll leave others to address to rest of your question.  

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I think it reflects a "subtle" touch.  It may have the same notes...but starting on any tone of the scale other than the root imparts a different feeling to the same scale when played.  At least IMHO.

You can resolve to the "G" to suit your ear; but running the scale in the chosen starting tone delivers something unique to that scale.  I warm up starting with the E scale on the 12th fret (high E) and work the "modes" down the fretboard  to resolve with the dorian starting with the 14th fret.  I feel there is a difference.

Bryan

Edited by Plantsman13
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18 hours ago, Magnit said:

Modes. I can't recall if Steve mentions this in the LMG course that I finished years ago. For instance A dorian contains the same notes as G major, but with A as the root. How do I make it, not sound G major? Starting and ending on A isn't enough.

Theoretically, you should be able to hear the subtle difference between the G major and A Dorian because the interval formulas (whole/half step arrangements) are not the same, but the majority of music in the western world has been based around the major scale and its harmony. Our ears are used to hearing melodies in relation to this major scale. Because A Dorian is built from G major, playing it in isolation will tend to make you hear it as wanting to resolve to the root of the parent scale or G major.

This destroys the modal characteristics and the end result is that you simply hear the major scale starting from a different note. To highlight the character of the mode it’s best to play it in the context of the modal progression. In the case of A Dorian mode, Am or Am7 needs to be your tonic chord or tonal centre. You also can try playing it against the A drone.

Regardless of whether the progression is modal (using modes) or tonal (using major/minor scales or keys) modes are very useful for improvisation in various styles.

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Modes are amazing, aren't they?

Same notes, sure, but the intervals are all different. You start to realize over time that you don't hear notes, you hear intervals - and as such, every mode of a scale is really like its own unique scale. A Dorian isn't just some minor modification to G major. It's an A Dorian scale. (At least that's the way my muddled mind thinks of it.. maybe not the best, but that's where I am today)

And when you hear the intro to your favorite song you don't think anymore "that's (this note) to (that note)", you hear "that sounded like a minor third I think?" or "what's that 'out' tone there, is that a flat 5?" 

Then your mind will really start boggling about these little details and you'll never hear your favorite song the same way again ?

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Thanks for the welcome and answers. :)

After work I'll test the scale against a chord progression on my looper starting and ending on Am7.

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I was just reviewing this in Fretboard Theory again by Desi Serna, but Jazzy Beatle just said it all in a nutshell.  I had read it a few years ago during my 15 minute lunch breaks.  It makes much more sense if you actually hear it when it is played.  Helpful pneumonic for modes:  I Don't Play Like My A** Looks.  GH

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IN ORDER:  see these resources to understand modes

1) Signals Music Studios You tube video on Modes - parallel modes. Only 15 minutes and the absolute best summary.

2) Desi Serna's MODES DVD or Online course (also a module of his fretboard theory book 1) Not free, but the best thing to make the light bulb go on and provides numerous musical examples of modes -- which is ESSENTIAL to appreciating modes. I can't recommend this highly enough. It is ABSOLUTELY the best thing modes. It just isn't free.

3) Steve Stine - You tube modes videos (multiple) - just another viewpoint, but he's pretty good. I think his modes discussion still leaves gaps, but you can learn something from him too.

4) Pebber Brown - you tube modes discussion - Pebbler is terse and can be offputting. But watch his video anyway. In particular he flys over the concept quickly of parent scale modes verses parallel modes. It's really important to cutting through the confusion. Most instructors approach modes from parent scales, deriving them and that's great but...leaves confusion about how to apply it. You need to understand both. 

If you don't get modes after all that - you might have gaps in basic theory: building the major scale, building Triads for each note of the scale. Harmonizing the major scale. All concepts you can master in Learn and Master Guitar - and should. 

Modes sometimes get pigeon-holed as useless, or as some academic theory exercise. WRONG! They are very powerful for composers as a way to evoke specific emotions, or specific sounds similar to how a major scale sounds "bright and happy" and a minor scale sounds "dark and sad". In fact, the major and minor scales ARE two of the modes. In fact, if you understand modes well, you have a whole new toolbox for soloing. 

The application to soloing is this. Just as you might play a solo and move between major pentatonic and minor pentatonic scales in the same song, you can move between modes that have a common tonal center, in the same solo or song. This is powerful. It's how you can build solos that are interesting, instead of boring. A similar example common in blues music is to move between the Blues Scale (pentatonic with blue notes) and the Mixolydian mode.

Resources 1 and 2 in the list above will help you HEAR the modes, and when you do, you'll understand their application immediately.  3 and 4 also are worth watching.  

 

Edited by BluzCruz
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I just watched the first video. Clear explanation. Thanks for sharing.

Wim.

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BluzCruz: Signals Music Studio made modes amazingly clear. Thank you. I'm glad I was able to watch this at the beginning of my guitar journey. At my stage "being limited to the little box" would be a big step forward.

ShadowBoxer86: I wrote down your pneumonic. :-)

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Another resource worth looking at is 

The Rock House Method Presents Fretboard Autopsy: Scales, Modes & Melodic Patterns Paperback & DVD by Rusty Cooley 

I like that it takes the G major scale and plays the modes as "three note per string" scales, and lays them out in very readable format of diagrams and tab. Spend a couple weeks on lesson 1. Maybe more. Steve covers TNPS scales somewhere along the way but I don't recall that he tied that to modes, even though that is what the seven patterns essentially are. Rusty lays out important characteristics and relationships. Worth a look. 

I haven't done the whole book, only the first "lesson" but I like the book and paging forward, I like where it is going. However, to understand modes - I'd still recommend resources 1 and especially 2 above in my original list. 

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On 8/27/2018 at 3:13 PM, Magnit said:

Modes. I can't recall if Steve mentions this in the LMG course that I finished years ago. For instance A dorian contains the same notes as G major, but with A as the root. How do I make it, not sound G major? Starting and ending on A isn't enough.

It’s not the Dorian scale notes that make a difference it’s the chords you play them over. Play A Dorian over a  Am chord and it will sound Dorian. Playing A Dorian over a G mayor chord will sound exactly t like playing G major scale.

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On 10/24/2019 at 5:08 PM, Triple-o said:

It’s not the Dorian scale notes that make a difference it’s the chords you play them over. Play A Dorian over a  Am chord and it will sound Dorian. Playing A Dorian over a G mayor chord will sound exactly t like playing G major scale.

How do you figure out which chords to harmonize a mode with?

I recently started transcribing songs to train my ear to hear intervals, but I haven't unlocked how to figure out which mode is being used. How do you know it's A Aeolian being used and not C Ionian? My only guide is my ears. If the chords and melody shout C Ionian, but my ears tell me the tonic is A, then I go for A Aeolian instead. But that feels like cheating. :)

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On 12/31/2019 at 9:34 AM, Magnit said:

How do you figure out which chords to harmonize a mode with?

Modal harmony has its peculiarities. In case of the five (variously referred to as) “Greek Modes,” “Church Modes,” or “Jazz Modes”: Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian, you can’t establish mode defining tonality using harmonic scale (scale of chords) due to problems with the V7 – I progression, and some other harmonic incongruities. In other words, you can harmonize any one of the five modes, but you will find problems with the strongest and tonality defining V7 – I cadence. So, the trick is to combine modal melody with standard major-minor (Ionian-Aeolian) chord progression.

Suppose you use the three principal chords in the key of D major (D, G and A7). The notes that make up those chords are: D E F# G A B C# D. Now suppose you write a melody using only the notes of the Dorian mode: D E F G A B C D. Two of the melody notes, F and C, will clash with the notes of the three principal chords. Those two notes are chromatic – they don’t belong to the key of D major. In order to preserve the Dorian mode feel, it’s important to avoid any instances of F# and C# in the melody.

Furthermore, any modal scale can use any of the 12 chromatic notes as the tonic note. For example, the Dorian mode scale can start and end on the note E, provided you preserve the order of tones and semitones that defines the Dorian mode: tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone. So, if you begin on the note E, the Dorian scale would be E F# G A B C# D E, and you would play the chords of E major: E, A and B7.  

On the other hand, just because modal harmony doesn’t work the same way as the major scale one, it doesn’t mean it’s completely useless. In the context of minor scales, the Dorian mode is frequently used as a key-centre scale with its own scale harmony. In the Dorian scale harmony the IV chord gets a dominant seventh quality. In jazz, modal cadences are used as modal reharmonization techniques.  

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On 1/2/2020 at 2:05 AM, V7#5b9 said:

Modal harmony has its peculiarities. In case of the five (variously referred to as) “Greek Modes,” “Church Modes,” or “Jazz Modes”: Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, and Locrian, you can’t establish mode defining tonality using harmonic scale (scale of chords) due to problems with the V7 – I progression, and some other harmonic incongruities. In other words, you can harmonize any one of the five modes, but you will find problems with the strongest and tonality defining V7 – I cadence. So, the trick is to combine modal melody with standard major-minor (Ionian-Aeolian) chord progression.

 

Suppose you use the three principal chords in the key of D major (D, G and A7). The notes that make up those chords are: D E F# G A B C# D. Now suppose you write a melody using only the notes of the Dorian mode: D E F G A B C D. Two of the melody notes, F and C, will clash with the notes of the three principal chords. Those two notes are chromatic – they don’t belong to the key of D major. In order to preserve the Dorian mode feel, it’s important to avoid any instances of F# and C# in the melody.

 

Furthermore, any modal scale can use any of the 12 chromatic notes as the tonic note. For example, the Dorian mode scale can start and end on the note E, provided you preserve the order of tones and semitones that defines the Dorian mode: tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone. So, if you begin on the note E, the Dorian scale would be E F# G A B C# D E, and you would play the chords of E major: E, A and B7.  

 

On the other hand, just because modal harmony doesn’t work the same way as the major scale one, it doesn’t mean it’s completely useless. In the context of minor scales, the Dorian mode is frequently used as a key-centre scale with its own scale harmony. In the Dorian scale harmony the IV chord gets a dominant seventh quality. In jazz, modal cadences are used as modal reharmonization techniques.  

 

Thank you for that elaborate answer. I find that interval training, ear training and improvisation has been one of the most giving endeavours in my guitar journey. Just discovered @BluzCruz posts above.. A big thanks for that as well. Will look at Desi Serna's books and online course. I don't a DVD-player.

Edited by Magnit
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