7th chords

[sleepingangel]

So I'm finding my way around a tenor guitar. It's tuned cgda 

Im figuring out some chords and if I have the notes: EGBD.  Would that be? an E minor dominant 7th? But what would it be if I made it D#? A minor major 7th?

but the key of Em is the same as g major which only has one sharp F# so wouldn't the flatted 7th of Em scale actually be a d flat?? I'm a little confused. Oh boy I think I've forgotten more than I learned being away from the course in a while 

 

thanks so mich 

maria 

 

[DianeB]

Yes, Maria, E-G-B-D is Em7 (1-b3-5-b7). E-G-B-D# is (I think) Em(maj)7. Em is G aeolian, so the flatted 7th is F for both, as I understand it. I could use some clarification with this, too.

[V7#5b9]

As Diane says E-G-B-D is Em7 and E-G-B-D# is Emin-maj7. In a minor tonality Emin-maj7 is the I chord of the harmonic minor which is a variation of a minor scale, formed by raising the seventh note one half step. Doing so creates a leading tone to the scale. In the natural E minor, unlike the E major tonality, the dominant is built over the seventh degree of the scale which is bVII7 or D7. 

I hope this clarifies the confusion somewhat.

[Cindy]

Hi Maria. There isn't any type of minor dominant 7th chord. A dominant 7th chord is a major triad with a minor 7th.

Using your example of the E minor 7th chord, EGBD is made up of a minor triad with a minor 7th. So this chord is simply referred to as an E minor 7th. 

I think there is a little confusion over what is called a flatted 7th. It doesn't mean you put a flat sign in front of a note. It means you lower a note by 1/2 step. If I start with F# and want to flatten it, I don't wind up with Fb. I end up with F-natural.

And with your example of EGBD#, it is a minor triad with a major 7th. 

The next info I give you will probably confuse you even more. So to answer your question, what I just said I'm hoping will be enough info.

Now on to expand you mind a little with minor keys vs major keys. Take a look at this example using C major and its relative minor key of A minor.

In any major key, there are 7 diatonic notes (diatonic meaning found naturally in the key). So in key of C major, we have the notes CDEFGAB which make up the C major scale.

BUT when we look at a minor key, there are 3 different minor scales. The first example is the Natural Minor Scale. This is the scale that uses only notes found in the key signature.

When we look at the second example of the Harmonic Minor Scale, there is a raised 7th note in that scale (G# in the above example). That means that all G#'s are used in chords making up the Harmonic Minor Scale.

Then when you look at the Melodic Minor Scale, we see that not only is the 7th note of the scale raised 1/2 step, so is the 6th note. 

Is it important to know this? Not really. What IS important is this: in a major key, there are 7 diatonic triads: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, and vii-diminished. 

In a minor key, there are 13 diatonic triads: i, ii, ii-diminished, III, III+ (augmented), iv, IV, v, V, VI, vi-diminished, VII, and vii-diminished. 

Your chord of EGBD# comes from the Harmonic Minor Scale.

Here is more info on 7th chords. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_chord

Edited January 8, 2018 by Cindy

[sleepingangel]

wow!! i always loved Steve's forum but i love it even more now. I always "missed" posts and found it hard to get on sometimes but this is Fantastic. Thank you all so much for helping me out. Gerard, Diane and Cindy. I really appreciate. AND Cindy. I will study the info you told me so absorb it. I really do enjoy music theory and want to brush away some of the cob webs of stuff I've forgotten and really understand the stuff that has me confused. Thanks. I think I was thinking that I had to know what the flats or sharps were in the key of G which was the key of the song with that chord I was talking about. That's where I was thinking that in the key of G there is only one sharp F#. So that I would have to lower the D to Db to make it the 7th chord. 

Thanks for clearing that up!! 

Maria

[Cindy]

@sleepingangel you do want to learn the key signatures of the major keys and their respective relative minor keys (session 8) and be able to play the major scales (session 7). You don't need to know all the 13 diatonic chords in a minor key. Just keep in mind that minor keys may use raised 6th and 7th notes. From there, you should be able to figure things out. 

[sleepingangel]

Thank you for reminding me which sessions those are in. I actually used to know all that having gotten all the way to session 17 but as they said “if you don’t use it you lose it!”  Time to hit the books and videos again !!

thanks 

Maria 

[Mike Hoodenpyle]

Another way to build chords is to stick to the root's major scale. If you know a chord's intervals and the notes of the scale, it's easier than thinking in terms of a relative minor key when building minor chords.

For example, the intervals of a m7 chord are root - minor 3rd - perfect 5th - minor 7th. The notes of the E major scale are E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - D#. Therefore, the notes of an Em7 are E - G - B - D.

The intervals of a m/M7 chord are root - minor 3rd - perfect 5th - major 7th. Therefore, the notes of an Em/M7 are E - G - B - D#. 

Hope that helps.

[sleepingangel]

Actually that does help too. I was originally getting myself mixed up because I was working in key of G and when I was trying  formulate the em7 chord I was thinking "oh key of G only has one sharp F#. (Not realizing that I shouldn't be just thinking that the key of E major has 4 sharps so that when you make it a E7 or and Em7 you have to flat that 7th (d#). So the lightbulb went on from all of the Repsonses. I realized why The flatted 7th had to be. A "d" natural  not D flat! And then raising it for the major 7th makes the crazy sounding em Major 7th but I actually get it now. Thanks 

 

[gotto]

As an aside, am I correct in thinking E G B D are the notes also associated with G6 ? I need to review my theory also.

Greg

[DianeB]

Yes, Greg, I believe you are correct. G(major)6 uses the same notes (pitches, for the purists; pitch classes for the ultra purists) as an Em7 in first inversion. The name will depend on the context.

Edited January 12, 2018 by DianeB